Kamloops Mayor Reid Hamer-Jackson says he hasn’t read — and won’t be reading — a council resolution saying he must hand over any recordings of conversations with city staff made without their permission, and was non-committal when asked whether he would comply with the demand.
On Thursday, council released decisions made in a closed meeting earlier this week related to Hamer-Jackson’s disclosure that a conversation between the mayor and city CAO David Trawin was recorded without the head staffer’s knowledge or permission.
According to the document, council has directed the mayor to surrender any audio recordings, transcripts or notes taken at his direction by a non-city representative during conversations with city staff when they weren’t aware another person was present.
Hamer-Jackson has been given 10 days to provide the materials to the city’s human resources director. Council also directed city staff to retain an external investigator to look into the matter.
When reached by Castanet Kamloops on Thursday afternoon, the mayor said he hadn’t looked over the statement.
“I haven’t read it yet,” Hamer-Jackson said, adding he was made aware of the closed council meeting.
“Apparently, they've gone in and out of a closed meeting and it's already been released to the public before I even was aware of it.”
However, Coun. Kelly Hall said councillors made an effort to discuss the matter with the mayor before releasing council’s decision — but Hamer-Jackson refused to meet with Hall and Coun. Margot Middleton.
“It was paramount that we advise the mayor ahead of time that this resolution was talked about on Tuesday, and that we wanted to inform him on the call to action,” Hall said Thursday evening.
“We tried to meet with him today but he refused to meet with me, which is unfortunate. Because I think in the terms of fairness, it would, to me, be the right thing to do as far as present the document to review the document. And not to be able to do that is disappointing.”
Hamer-Jackson said Hall knocked on his closed office door while he was on the phone.
“He knocks on a closed door, and I'm on the phone and I've got meetings and, excuse me — who is he?” Hamer-Jackson told Castanet, claiming he opened his door while still on the phone and saw what looked to be a couple of councillors standing there.
He said they eventually slid a document under his door but he's not sure what it says.
“I haven't read it," he said. "I'm not going to be reading it."
When Castanet Kamloops asked the mayor if he planned to hand over transcripts and recordings by the 10-day deadline, he replied, “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”
“I would like the same to happen to all of council," he said.
"I haven't read it, but whatever they're asking, as long as it's the same for all I have no problem."
Hamer-Jackson said he’d like council members to release other information to the public, like a report completed by an investigator who determined the mayor had violated council’s code of conduct by disrespecting or demeaning staff, and a letter councillors gave him in December after a legal back-and-forth with local social agency ASK Wellness.
“What's good for the goose is good for the gander," he said again.
"So whatever they want to do, let's make it a council decision. And let's have all nine do the same as they would like one to do."
The council statement released Thursday includes an email sent to all council members and staff by the city’s human resources manager in May 2023.
The email said secretly or openly recording conversations with others in the workplace is “cause for concern on several levels,” and strictly prohibited at City of Kamloops worksites. The manager said those actions violate standards laid out in the city’s corporate policy and “erode understanding and mutual respect in the workplace.”
“Employees who fail to comply with these standards or policies may be subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal,” the email said.
Hall said councillors understood this action to be a violation of the City of Kamloops human resources policy, noting it’s the city’s legal duty to provide a safe workplace for its employees, free from bullying and harassment.
He said council needs to set the standard for the corporation.
“It's important that we not only investigate any and all HR violations, whether they’re staff violations, whether it’s managers violations or whether they're violations within council," he said.
"It shows good leadership for the corporation — that you're taking care of everything.”
Hall said he was “dismayed" a tactic like recording the CAO would be employed by the mayor.
“Why wouldn't you say to an individual, 'By the way, I'm recording this conversation — are you OK with it?’ And ask for permission. To me, that makes sense,” he said,
When asked about the policy and the implications of recording the CAO without his permission, Hamer-Jackson said the mayor isn’t a staff member, but an elected official, and the policy applies to staff.
He also said the conversation wasn’t about a private matter, but about information the mayor would be relaying to members of the public anyhow.
“When I'm relaying that information, I don't find that to be private, confidential. I mean, he's relaying that to me to tell the public,” Hamer-Jackson said.
Hall noted the external investigator mentioned in the council statement hasn’t yet been hired. The city is waiting until the 10 days elapses and records can be compiled.
When asked what council will do if Hamer-Jackson doesn’t comply with the directive, Hall said they are hopeful he will respond.
“In the event that he doesn’t then I think we have to take a look at that,” he said.
